[AUUG-Talk]: Any progress on continuing as an unincorporated organisation

[Christopher Vance]

On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 01:47:34PM +1100, steve jenkin wrote:
>Your response doesn't move the conversation forward, nor does it answer
>any questions.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to be constructive.

>Your "put up or shut up" comment doesn't answer any question and is not
>helpful in any way.

Hmm.  I was trying hard to be pleasant, since I've never had reason to
dislike you, but you seem to be trying to get a rise out of me right now.

>I didn't stand for a board position because I judged I couldn't deliver
>to the standard required - it wasn't ignorance, apathy/indifference or
>sabotage. I offered to replace Liz for $20,000/year - something I
>*could* deliver and probably be a darn sight cheaper and better value.

So we had the boards we had.  Assuming your offer was made shortly
after Liz left, I wouldn't know whether it was seriously considered.

>Your insistence that "I didn't agree to it, so it didn't happen" doesn't
>cut it for me.

I never suggested that.  I meant that we may not have been aware of
things like that.  Perhaps the Treasurer of the time could or should
have put the money from CAUUG and/or other chapters into a separate
account, whether just in the books or also in the bank, but I don't
believe that happened.  The book accounts do not currently reflect any
specific money associated with chapters.  Maybe there was an earlier
distinction not carried forward when we changed how the accounts were
kept?  Without significant research I/we can't answer.

>The AUUG Board has failed in its Governance:
>- that one Board made an agreement that wasn't recorded and not passed
>on - only reflects on the various Boards

Yes.  Or it may have been recorded, but lost in the mists of time.

>- that you as representative of the current board have not publicly
>stated "I'll look into this", I find surprising

You may request the Secretary for minutes, but I don't think she has
any.  Keeping and/or passing on of records is not something that
recent boards have been good at.  If the best people don't make
themselves available for the Board, you end up with what's left.

I have boxes and boxes of old accounting papers on the floor around me
as I write, but I'm recovering from major surgery, so I can't lift and
move things at the moment.  As I'm no longer Treasurer, I'll at some
stage be sending the boxes on to storage.  The relevant papers may be
there, but I am physically unable to check them now.  If you wish to
come to Sydney, you're free to look for yourself, provided you leave
things tidy when you're done.

>- that you imply that CAUUG should've distrusted the AUUG Board so much
>as to insist on a formal Trust Agreement, I find equally incredulous. 
>When did we start to need paranoia internally?

I didn't suggest the paper would be legal document.  I just meant "was
it written down?".  Please stop trying to make things bigger than they
are.

>- the facts of this whole malarkey is trivially resolved - the Treasurer
>only has to look at the AUUG bank account for a transaction for around
>$20,000 . Around 2001-2002 - I can't remember and don't have the CAUUG
>bank accounts. If the AUUG Treasurer doesn't have those bank records,
>that's damning comment on the diligence standards. [Which in and of
>themselves should've been reported to the membership]

See above.  The current Treasurer is in Canberra, and has the MYOB
stuff.  I don't know when we started with MYOB, so the transaction may
not be reflected there.  He has bank statements back to 2005, I think.
I have older statements somewhere in the many boxes mentioned above.
I have no idea how the accounts were kept prior to the existing
MYOB/Mac setup, so I have no idea how to find the transaction, and
can't look now.

>What money there is, is what there is. That can't be changed.

Indeed.  I'm guessing non-Lions money is probably between $20K and
$25K at the moment.

>Appropriating specifically earmarked money, especially when its been
>brought to your attention, is poor form to me.

The "appropriation" if any, occured long before it was brought to my
attention.

>I'd like the Board to:
>- confirm that the transaction took place

Can't do that right now, but I have no reason to disbelieve you.

>- acknowledge the arrangement with CAUUG

Speaking for myself only, I acknowledge the arrangement sounds
plausible.  But I wasn't a participant and can't comment on the
detail.  Were you on the committee making the agreement?  Who was?
Who did the AUUG end?

>- make a proposal to CAUUG in the light of that.

Who are the CAUUG committee currently?  I mean, do you want to *be* AUUG?
Then you could have it all.

>This is about the AUUG Board honouring an undertaking and allowing CAUUG
>the option to decide how its funds might be handled.
>
>As the subject of this thread says:
>    *Continuing* AUUG is an option.
>
>Retaining assets if it continues as an unincorporated body would seem
>very wise to me.
>I'm sure CAUUG members & committee would be happy to give all/some funds
>to that cause - *if* they were asked.

Distributing assets must be done as required by the constitution and
the relevant laws of Victoria.  It may be possible that zero-value
assets can be distributed to unincorporated bodies, but I believe that
assets with dollar values probably can't.

If the money you're talking about is indeed held on trust, it can
possibly be recovered, provided it's done before any dissolution and
distribution of assets.  But we'd need to know whether there were
other chapters in similar situations before we know if it's all there,
and how much was available, etc.

-- 
Christopher Vance